I think it is the Christian who must answer the question you put forth. I do assume you think slavery is immoral. Don’t you?

It seems to me that one cannot “ground it” in the Bible. And it seems Christians are caught in the dilemna of being moral relativists such as they might say “slavery was acceptable because God said it was, but now it is not.” Why is slavery morally acceptable, or not?

Plato of course dealt with this problem. Does an alleged God choose to judge something bad because it is? Or is what is bad simply a matter of God’s choosing?

I believe it is and was immoral to own a person as property, regardless of time or culture of societies throughout history.

Why? How do you ground this?

With a background in anthropology, I am quite aware of the different contexts of slavery in different cultures and times, including that of the Bible. It may be true in certain situations and in Bible times, slaves are treated decently. But it seems that the Purple Baron embraces a kind of moral relativism. Whether slaves are treated decently or not is one issue. The other is if it is immoral or not to own a person as property. I believe it is and was immoral to own a person as property, regardless of time or culture of societies throughout history. Most people today, including most Christians I suspect believe as I do, thanks to moral evolution in this matter. Yet at least some Christians have difficulty resolving the contradiction between the presumed morality of the Bible and their actual morality.

I will return tommorow to address Jim’s comments on the vast universe, and the problem of evil and the fall. My first post was to only open up the discussion.
Sheldon

I wont comment on what Tim M has covered. He has covered it well.

You say that Jesus says his followers must hate his parents. Yet you neglect to say the context. Jesus is saying that the allegience he demands is so great, so important, that all other relationships seem like hate. That is the standard Jesus expect. Sadly many christians do not live up to this standard.

Regarding slavery: you and the bible speak to different forms of slavery. Slavery in our mind is terrible. It involves holding people against their will etc. But slavery in the sciptures was far different. Slaves were often considered part of the family. Slaves had many rights. Paul speaks to the slaves and urges them to serve their masters as if they were serving Jesus. For many references about slavery and how masters ought to treat their slaves well (see how it is a different type of slavery to ours) see these references: Eph 6:5, Eph 6:9, Col 4:1 and others.

Before you tarnish christianity “as endorsing slavery”, please do some further reading.

Purple Baron.

If you want to evaluate the Christian idea of God, you must deal with the Christian idea of God, and not simply abstract theism.

The universe is vast and (as far as we know) mostly empty of intelligent life. And the Bible teaches that all things were created through and for Christ. So…What’s your point? How does that conflict with expectations of Christianity? Why should there be any life off of Earth, within a Christian worldview?

In your discussion of evils within the natural world, you give no consideration to the Fall, sin, and judgment–fundamentally important and highly relevant aspects of Christian worldview.

You cannot claim to be evaluating natural revelation and the Judeo-Christian God if you give no consideration to what Judeo-Christians say about him.

I can think of an infinite number of reasons. A vast universe, yet relatively empty of intelligent life except for earth. While the natural world is indeed magnificent, it also contains its fair share of nastiness. For example the many diseases that inflict human kind that are living organisms, allegedly created by a loving God. These disproportionately affect the poor and the very young. The opportunism of evolutionary processes explains the existence of these organisms much better.

Why would a loving god create a world with plate tectonics that can potentially cause the south Asian Tsunami that killed 100s of thousands of people?

Then there is the revelation of the bible. Allegedly the Bible is supposed to be a guide for morality. However, the Bible does not condemn slavery in either testament. When the crime of rape is committed, the Bible is concerned with the compensation of the victim’s father. Jesus in more than one of the gospels instructs his potential followers to hate their parents and other relatives. I have heard various explanations for these passages which raises the question of if God intended to reveal and communicate with us, then why would he not communicate more clearly?

Sorry, these two types of revelation are hardly adequate to establish God’s existence.
Sheldon