Comments on: What “Good” is Embryonic Stem Cell Research? http://withallyourmind.net/archives/2006/what-good-is-embryonic-stem-cell-research/ Mon, 01 Dec 2008 17:07:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Jeremy http://withallyourmind.net/archives/2006/what-good-is-embryonic-stem-cell-research/#comment-2577 Jeremy Thu, 03 Aug 2006 21:07:41 +0000 http://withallyourmind.net/?p=273#comment-2577 Daniel, I will not attempt to answer your emotional presentation of the argument from evil at present, although I will say that I can empathize with you and your cry for justice. But you might want to think about your longing for justice and the sense you have of the world being all wrong. In my worldview, the world <i>is</i> all wrong, and justice <i>will</i> be had. On yours, the world simply is, and justice, however you define it, will not exist or matter when the universe is no longer habitable. As for your question on topic about whether we would choose to save a tank of embryos or a crying child, I'm afraid it doesn't really close the debate. Even if we were to choose the child, that answers a different question than if the embryos have an equal right to life. It's an emotional appeal, which may or may not be a guide to truth. However, it seems to me that when making policy issues and such it is more reasonable to look at the facts than think about how I might <i>feel</i> in a particular circumstance. Daniel,
I will not attempt to answer your emotional presentation of the argument from evil at present, although I will say that I can empathize with you and your cry for justice. But you might want to think about your longing for justice and the sense you have of the world being all wrong. In my worldview, the world is all wrong, and justice will be had. On yours, the world simply is, and justice, however you define it, will not exist or matter when the universe is no longer habitable.
As for your question on topic about whether we would choose to save a tank of embryos or a crying child, I’m afraid it doesn’t really close the debate. Even if we were to choose the child, that answers a different question than if the embryos have an equal right to life. It’s an emotional appeal, which may or may not be a guide to truth. However, it seems to me that when making policy issues and such it is more reasonable to look at the facts than think about how I might feel in a particular circumstance.

]]> By: Daniel Morgan http://withallyourmind.net/archives/2006/what-good-is-embryonic-stem-cell-research/#comment-2571 Daniel Morgan Thu, 03 Aug 2006 02:59:48 +0000 http://withallyourmind.net/?p=273#comment-2571 Barry, These embryos are going to die regardless. No one is adopting all of the excess embryos. Period. You can hem-haw all day long, but they are <em>all going to die regardless</em>... Therefore, do we use them in an attempt to help other people, or let them languish in a freezer until they are discarded? WWJD? Tell me, Barry, is every human life "equal" in the sense that if we <b>had</b> to choose one to live and one to die, between a healthy baby and a very sick old person, would it be that difficult to know the right person to choose? Now, if you admit that there is indeed a distinction, let us consider how we might determine the VALUE of these embryos versus already-conscious human life. How do we do that? You're caught in a burning building, Barry, and you are at a T junction with an exit sign at both. On the way out the door, you see that you can pick up: a) a liquid N2 tank containing <b>one million</b> embryos b) a toddler who is sitting on the floor crying for his mother in pain What do you do, and why? Debate closed. In a perfect world (ie a world that God would create), there would be no such dilemmas, because God would tell us how to cure disease, and how to predict and track hurricanes, instead of leaving us in the ignorance of blind, mute, indifferent nature for millenia, until we discover a reliable way to unlock her secrets (science). I only wish I could believe that such a Being existed, but the world in which we live renders me incapable of such faith. The number of people screaming right now in agony in hospitals, because God doesn't care enough to show us how to cure them, the number of persons who die <b>every day</b> of starvation, around 30,000, <em>mostly children</em>... Just because your God is too busy or indifferent to rain down some manna for them? It's an unbelievable God. There are no believable gods. And there is no logical reason to place the value of a clump of cells above that of a conscious human being in pain who wants to be cured. The will to live, and self-awareness, are what make us valuable, relative to unthinking cell clumps. Barry,

These embryos are going to die regardless. No one is adopting all of the excess embryos. Period. You can hem-haw all day long, but they are all going to die regardless…

Therefore, do we use them in an attempt to help other people, or let them languish in a freezer until they are discarded? WWJD?

Tell me, Barry, is every human life “equal” in the sense that if we had to choose one to live and one to die, between a healthy baby and a very sick old person, would it be that difficult to know the right person to choose?

Now, if you admit that there is indeed a distinction, let us consider how we might determine the VALUE of these embryos versus already-conscious human life.

How do we do that?

You’re caught in a burning building, Barry, and you are at a T junction with an exit sign at both. On the way out the door, you see that you can pick up:
a) a liquid N2 tank containing one million embryos
b) a toddler who is sitting on the floor crying for his mother in pain

What do you do, and why?

Debate closed.

In a perfect world (ie a world that God would create), there would be no such dilemmas, because God would tell us how to cure disease, and how to predict and track hurricanes, instead of leaving us in the ignorance of blind, mute, indifferent nature for millenia, until we discover a reliable way to unlock her secrets (science). I only wish I could believe that such a Being existed, but the world in which we live renders me incapable of such faith. The number of people screaming right now in agony in hospitals, because God doesn’t care enough to show us how to cure them, the number of persons who die every day of starvation, around 30,000, mostly children…

Just because your God is too busy or indifferent to rain down some manna for them? It’s an unbelievable God. There are no believable gods. And there is no logical reason to place the value of a clump of cells above that of a conscious human being in pain who wants to be cured. The will to live, and self-awareness, are what make us valuable, relative to unthinking cell clumps.

]]> By: Barry Carey http://withallyourmind.net/archives/2006/what-good-is-embryonic-stem-cell-research/#comment-2514 Barry Carey Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:46:23 +0000 http://withallyourmind.net/?p=273#comment-2514 Daver, I'm afraid you must misunderstand the "process" of fertilization and embryonic development (or at least the position I take on the ethics of ESCR). A sperm or an ovum in itself is just a cell of the human body which has no capability of developing into a human being. It is not a human being no more than a skin cell is a human being. However, once the sperm and ovum come together and fertilzation takes place, a brand new human comes into existence with DNA that is different from any other human being. Your question regarding sperm makes little sense in this context. In regard to your last statemtent...What?? All processes have a beginning. Perhaps you can give me an example of a process you've observed which has not begun. Daver, I’m afraid you must misunderstand the “process” of fertilization and embryonic development (or at least the position I take on the ethics of ESCR). A sperm or an ovum in itself is just a cell of the human body which has no capability of developing into a human being. It is not a human being no more than a skin cell is a human being. However, once the sperm and ovum come together and fertilzation takes place, a brand new human comes into existence with DNA that is different from any other human being. Your question regarding sperm makes little sense in this context.
In regard to your last statemtent…What?? All processes have a beginning. Perhaps you can give me an example of a process you’ve observed which has not begun.

]]> By: daver http://withallyourmind.net/archives/2006/what-good-is-embryonic-stem-cell-research/#comment-2512 daver Wed, 26 Jul 2006 19:11:06 +0000 http://withallyourmind.net/?p=273#comment-2512 Umm should we save the sperm too??? Sorry life doesn't begin... Life is a process. Umm should we save the sperm too??? Sorry life doesn’t begin… Life is a process.

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