Gnostics vs. Paul

Filed under: Philosophy, Theology — Barry Carey at 7:12 am on Friday, April 28, 2006

This is the third and final in a series on how a Christian should view his body. First, we briefly introduced the Christian perspective. Next, we looked at how Plato has influenced some Christian beliefs about the body. Today, we look at another group which was heavily influenced by Platonic belief - the Gnostics. There has been a lot of talk about Gnosticism lately with the approaching release of the Da Vinci Code movie and the recently debated Gospel of Thomas. It would not be practical to speak of all the Gnostic beliefs, nor are all Gnostic beliefs universal among Gnostics. However, one may speak in a general sense about their view of the body.

The Gnostic theology finds much of its basis in Platonic thought. N. T. Wright quotes Helmut Koester, who introduced the Gospel of Thomas (a Gnostic gospel):

In order to return to one’s origin, the disciple is to become separate from the world by ‘stripping off’ the fleshly garment and ‘passing by’ the present corruptible existence.

A common theme found in many of the Gnostic writings is that the flesh and the material world are evil and corrupted. Our “resurrection” will be a purely spiritual one when we leave our bodies behind. As in Plato, there is a desire to escape suffering by being united with eternal essences. For the Gnostics, secret knowledge allows this escape to take place. Cary states that the Gnostics were the first Christians to believe “this world is not my home”. They believed they came from the heavenly world, belonged there and would return to it.
Now certainly, the world is not the home of the Christian in some sense (the world being corrupted by sin or the secular philosophy of the world), but in a real sense we were made for this world and a material existence.

It will be that “mortal” putting on “immortality” and that “corruptible” putting on “incorruptible” that will be our ultimate reality. Our hope is not some disembodied immaterial eternal existence, but a bodily existence, communing with our Lord and Savior who also lives forever in an embodied existence (his resurrection body) . I Cor 15:52-55 summarizes:

The trumpet shall sound; the dead shall be raised incorruptible; and we shall be changed. For this corruptible (body) must clothe itself with incorruptibility; and this mortal (body) must clothe itself with immortality. When this corruptible (body) has clothed itself with incorruptibility, and this mortal (body) has clothed itself with immortality, then shall come to pass the word that is written: Death is swallowed up into victory. Where is your victory, death? Where is your sting?

Wright argues that this repetition Paul uses in the foregoing verses is not unintentional. He is attempting to “stress against the doubters and the questioners, to make it clear to all the Christians in Corinth that the body is meant for the lord, and the lord for the body, and that the lord in whose own person death had been defeated would one day implement that defeat on behalf of all his people. They will not lose their bodies; nor will they be found ‘naked’. They will ‘put on a new suit of clothes’, will be given a new type of physicality…that…cannot wear out, cannot corrupt, cannot die (p 357-58).

12 Comments »

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Comment by Terry Eddy

May 9, 2006 @ 6:00 pm

Barry,
I can apriciate you view, but I cannot agree. Jesus has been glorified and no longer has a body, other than the church. We dont know HOW we shall “see” him, but we know we shall. The very idea of a physical body in eternity does not even suggest logic. There are billions of saints that have passed in 2000 years. How are you going to push your way to see him? We are one with Christ now. And when we pass from this life we will still be one with him. In spirit. The bible states that no flesh can see God and live. Nothing physical can stand in his presence. When God came and destroyed the temple (law) then all the dead, living, and Christ where married into one body. The new covenant was in full effect and now when we “die” we do not sleep, but we step into his full presence. This is the saying “Death where is thy victory? Where is your sting?
terry

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Comment by Barry Carey

May 9, 2006 @ 8:21 pm

Terry, Thanks for the comment. I’ve found when we cover too many points at once the conversation gets bogged down. With that in mind, what is illogical about a physical body in eternity? I find no contradiction in that unless one begins with an assumption that eternity does not allow physical bodies. That would then be begging the question.

By the way, I would agree that when we die we step into his presence and do not sleep. I believe this is probably some sort of intermediate disembodied state. What is the final resurrection if it is not a reunion with our bodies?

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Comment by Terry Eddy

May 10, 2006 @ 5:20 pm

Barry,
Just to show how impossible it is for a physical body to be in eternity;
sound waves travel –feet per second
light waves travel - feet per second
In both cases this is how the body interprets its surroundings -sight and sound.
In a place where time does not exist, how can these senses function? What will you walk on? If there is no need to eat, why have an intestinal tract?
The very idea that man will live as he is now thru eternity is based on a carnal mind set.
I could go into detail on the final resurrection, but just to be brief , I believe the “final” ( or second) resurrection happened when Christ came back in vengence against Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Or it is also called the GREAT resurrection. He called the saints from the grave to take vengence upon the city that murdered the prophets and saints. That is when death was destroyed forever.
We may have a “body” but it will be a spirit body. Paul also commented that when a seed is planted (death) it brings forth new life. (He was not speaking of the born again experience either.) The new plant looks nothing like the seed that was buried. Just as us, we do not know what we shall be, but we shall be like Him.
thanks for your blog, terry

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Comment by Barry Carey

May 11, 2006 @ 8:06 am

Terry, I find your comments interesting. In order to further understand your position, Did Christ have some type of physical body after the resurrection, and does he still have a physical body after his ascension?

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Comment by Terry Eddy

May 11, 2006 @ 8:51 am

Barry,
To understand the “resurrections” , if you study the feasts of first fruits you will find there were 3 different wave offerings. Each one was a shadow of the coming first fruit and resurrections. The first wave offering was before the congregation- public. The second was before the preists only, semi-private and the last was a wave offering in private only the high preist. (if i remember right) The first was a shadow of Christs resurrection, it was VERY public and with witness’s seeing his risen body, about 500 seen him. The second was the greater wave offering which shadowed the “great resurrection”. This was when Christ called all the dead from Hades to come against Jerusalem. The third wave offering was in private, this was a shadow of each individual mans resurrection when he is born again. Each man resurrected individually. Thus , when we take on the body of Christ, we become his BODY. I do not believe that Christ has a body now, for how can he if he lives in and thru us?
I have always heard that when we get to heaven that we are all going to stand in line and when we talk to Him , He will answer all our questions of this life. Again, carnal thinking! When we step into His presense and we become “like” him, we will know everything that God knows. You talk about knowing the secrets of the universe! WOW!
Now THATS heaven!!
still learning, terry

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Comment by Barry Carey

May 13, 2006 @ 1:40 pm

Terry, A few more questions:
1. From your response, it seems you do believe Christ had a body after his resurrection. What happened to it? If he shed it, why even resurrect it in the first place? Why’d he need it for the few days before his ascenscion?
2. Developing doctrine on the basis of foreshadowings and analogies (like OT feasts) which are not explicitly stated elsewhere is risky at best? For example, where does this scripture speak of Christ calling forth the dead from Hades to come against Jerusalem?
3. It appears you believe we will become omniscient when we die? Are we gods?
Thanks. Just seeking clarification because these concepts do not seem to find scritural support. Thanks, again.

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Comment by Terry Eddy

May 15, 2006 @ 7:56 pm

Barry,
Your question of what happened to Christs body.
When he ascended he became glorified, I believe that means returned to spirit.
Does he not dwell in us?
Is he actually sitting on the throne?
To say that Christ has a body and that his “spirit” is in us denotes to me that you believe in the trinity.
He is in us because he said that he would leave but then he would send the comforter and that HE would LIVE in us.
He was seen by witnesses for 40 days which is significant. 40 stands for completion. He was the public waving( proof ) of the first fruit of the dead.
His body was prophesied that it would not see corruption. The jews believed that the soul did not leave the body until the fourth day. (the day the body became corrupt)
The body meant nothing to him.
It was merely a sign to his followers that he indeed had risen.
The “doctrine” you mention of the feast of first fruit is no more than the same fullfillment of the Passover feast and the feast of pentecost and others.
What do you think the disciples were studing and fasting for when they studied the scriptures?
Their eyes had been opened to the fact that he was the fulfillment of all things written. He was the anti-type of all the foreshadowing. The REAL thing. They had been blinded to that before that point. They continually thought that his kingdom was earthly and that they would overthrow the roman goverment.
Developing doctrine from the shadows of the feasts is FAR from risky, it is pure scripture. All things are perfect, God made no error.

The scripture that talks of the calling of the saints from Hades is;
Matt 24 30-34
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes ( Isreal)of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.( judgment)
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matt. 24 : 34
Verily I say unto you, This generation SHALL NOT PASS, till all things be fulfilled. He was speaking to the disiples. Many times he said that the end of the world( judgment of Jerusalem) would happen BEFORE that generation ended.
Futurists believe that the gathering of the four winds is the resurrection of the living and dead but this is wrong. When wind is referenced all thru the bible it denotes spirit. So the gathering is of the dead from Hades (grave).
And in Rev. it talks of the dead crying out for vengence for their blood ( prophets and the saints) who were under the alter, and those were the ones gathered to aid God in pouring out his wrath on Jerusalem.
As far as we becoming omniscient;
We will be as He is, that is what the scripture says. We are the sons of God are we not? ” Behold , now we are the sons of God”.
Are we not joint heirs with Christ?
The church has for to long tried to fit a physical body resurrection into its doctrine when Christ is the Only One whose body did not see corruption. Ours will. Paul said, that we dont know what we shall be, but we shall be like him.
What we are going to by after we die ,I dont know. But I know I shall be like Him.
Terry

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Comment by Barry Carey

May 16, 2006 @ 9:53 pm

Terry, Thanks for the detailed reply. However, you still did not answer question one. Why did Jesus even need his body between the resurrection and ascenscion? Also, you seem to imply that if God indwelled (indwells) the body of Christ, he cannot exist outside of that body. Do you believe God ceased to exist everywhere else in the universe during the life of Christ? I find that hard to reconcile with scripture.

Secondly, while all scripture is good and perfect (including the description of the OT feasts), our use of the scripture and interpretation thereof is not. Many understand the feasts to prove the exact opposite of what you hold. The point is, it is risky to use OT analogies to support viewpoints that may not be as strongly supported in a straightforward manner.

If you study Greek philosophy and what the OT Jews (especially 2nd temple Jews) believed,you will find the Jews believedin bodily resurrection and it was the platonists(and later gnostics) who believed in a non-bodily resurrection.

I find your apparent view that we will be omniscient disturbing as it seems to border on a belief that we will become gods! There is only one omniscient one (according to the scripture) and that is God.

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Comment by Terry Eddy

May 17, 2006 @ 4:59 pm

Barry,
I seem to not be getting my point across…I never said that we would be omniscient. I just stated that we are going to know all the reasons for what we had to go thru down here (trials) when we step into His presense.
We may have a body , but I dont believe it will be flesh. Sort of like the angels. They can be spirit or body.
I answer again why Christs body was raised;
It was to be a witness to that generation that he indeed rose from the dead. Acts 3; 15
His was the First Fruit of the dead, the only one to not see corruption. 1 Corintians 15: 20
” But now is Christ risen from the dead and BECOME the first fruit of them that slept.”
I do not say that Christs body housed the entire spirit of God, just because of the fact that God is everywhere all the time. However, When the body of Christ had served its purpose and it became glorified, Why keep a physical body?
I do not rule out that he doesnt have a body, however, having a physical body (flesh) in a spiritual kingdom is confusing to me.
Terry

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Comment by Barry Carey

May 17, 2006 @ 6:09 pm

Terry, I appreciate your patience and persistence in your replies. Based on your latest comments, we are probably not that far apart in our beliefs. Many times it is just a matter of understanding what one means by certain statements or terminology. I certainly don’t know what kind of body we will have. Wright calls it a “transphysical” body. It will certainly not be exactly like our present corruptible body. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.

Comment by Randall Gray

July 15, 2006 @ 7:21 am

Gentlemen (and ladies):

I’ve been fascinated by this exchange. I came upon your website, Barry, searching for commentary on Paul’s response to the gnostics, about which I only, for now, have Sunday school knowledge going back to my youth. But obviously it is time to study that some more, if any of us have a message left. I prefer to throw out seed in love and pray. Anyway, two points: in this discussion I think it would be helpful to consider the post-resurrection body of Jesus, which ate with the disciples, and the pre-fall body of Adam and Eve, prior to corruption, when they ate also. I’ve always felt that God, whether we have digestion in the next world or not, will not deny us the joy of eating a piece of fruit from his hand, or trees, as it were, which are described (fruitrees) as being present in Eden II. I believe when it comes to matters of how we will be changed, as fun as it is to speculate, it is better to say, you know what, I don’t really know, but I can’t wait to find out. That doesn’t mean give up asking and wondering, but that is, after all, the best we can do.

Peace in Jesus,
Randy

Comment by Steven Carr

July 27, 2006 @ 11:50 am

‘They will ‘put on a new suit of clothes’, will be given a new type of physicality…that…cannot wear out, cannot corrupt, cannot die’

When Jesus was resurrected, what he was wearing over what, and what happened to the old set of clothes that he was wearing?

Was Jesus’s old set of clothes patched up and made new? You do not turn old clothes into new clothes by mending them. They remain old clothes.

Surely Paul’s clothing analogy means that we strip off our present bodies of flesh and receive new bodies made of new , heavenly material.

That is what happens when you change old clothes fo new clothes. Paul is telling the Corinthians that the old clothes (the old body) will be discarded, and you will get new clothes.

Paul talks about putting on new clothes, and Wright twists it to mean that the old clothes received something.

As soon as Wright starts talking about the disciples ‘putting on’ the Holy Spirit, rather than ‘receiving’ the Holy Spirit, then I will reconsider his reading of the metaphor.

Their is a famous line in Judaic writing :-

‘A sectarian said to R. Ammi: ‘Ye maintain that the dead will revive; but they turn to dust, and can dust come to life?”

Paul’s writings seem to answer this question perfectly.

In 1 Corinthians 15:47-48 ‘The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.’

And, of course, Wright has to resort to the rather desparate tactic of simply adding the word ‘body’ where Paul leaves it out.

And , lo and behold, Paul talks about a perishable body putting on imperishability, the very instant you add in the word body, which he quite forgot to write.

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